Interview with Richard Kingsmill, Milli Milgate & John Tingwell

Newtown RSL Bill

INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD KINGSMILL, JOHN TINGWELL AND MILLI MILGATE ON THE CLOSURE OF VENUES IN SYDNEY IN LATE 1990 early 2000.

Transcript and interview by Allison O’Donoghue

In 2000, I interviewed JJJ radio announcer, music journalist and Music Director Richard Kingsmill, Hopetoun and Annandale Hotel Booker Millie Milgate and Editor of The Drum Media John Tingwell on the closure of venues in and around Sydney.

This is the full transcript of those interviews and this is what they had to say.

RICHARD KINGSMILL – Radio announcer and Music Director at JJJ.

What are your thoughts on the closure of The Playroom on the Gold Coast?

It was a terrific venue and something of an institution on the Gold Coast, lots of bands passed through that area and lots of kids in the area could got to see their favourite bands both O/S and local bands. The government bought it out and are turning it into a facility for British athletes when they come out here for the (2000) Olympics to train. I don’t know the full background to it, but they’ve actually demolished it and it ceases being a building, let alone a live venue. They’ve turned it into a car park to house the facility next door. Anyway, as a venue it’s no more.

Kingsmill did a story on the closure of this venue and within 24hrs the venue was gone. Do you think they demolished the building because of your story and the interest that it created?

I don’t know. They may have panicked a bit, but Sunday night they had the final gig, which was a tour JJJ supported with bands like Not From There a Brisbane band and Shehad. Apparently, the next day the bulldozers came in and levelled the building so it could have been due to the show I did, but we’ll never know.

Did the public know about this? Why didn’t the locals try and protect the building?

I don’t think they knew. It was kept pretty quiet, however the first I heard about it was a couple of weeks before the final night, so I don’t think it was widely known that it was closing down. There wasn’t a huge outcry but a lot of that has to do with economics and you can’t stop progress, especially in an area like the Gold Coast. If its gonna happen, its gonna happen.

What are your thoughts on the Annandale Hotel installing poker machines and providing less live music?

Once again, that’s just down to simple economics. Someone has taken over the pub who thinks they can earn more money out of poker machines and a bistro as opposed to a live venue. I mean, there are people who will rally to the cause and see a gap in the market place, because venues like the Annandale are closing. Like the Newtown RSL for instance, which is turning into a live music venue, so one replaces the other. It's a shame both can’t operate side by side providing even more outlets for bands to get up on stage and play. There are a lot of reasons why these venues come and go. 

Enmore Theatre

What do you think it is? Evolution or cyclical?

Yes and no. Actually, you can trace the beginnings of it back to the 1984 – 85 when fire regulations came into Sydney.

And also crowd numbers and the ridiculous ‘arms out stretched’ rule?

Yeah, that was a comical one. You were only allowed to have 30 people per 90 square metres of space or whatever. Yeah, it basically meant that you could stand in a venue, outstretch you arms and if you touched someone it meant there were too many people in the venue. It made it very expensive for venues. A lot of venues had to completely renovate and put in new exits or just basically stop having live music. At that point we lost the Southern Cross, the Strawberry Hills, the Sydney Trade Union Club and a lot of other venues that stopped being live music venues because of the new regulations.

Then came dance Doff Doff clubs. Live music venues didn't transition very well - instead they competed with each other. Do you think that was a wise move?

They can co exist. The dance music scene in the late 80’s was huge and that directly rivalled live music coz a lot of kids went out to dance in clubs for the first time. And why not?  But throughout the 90’s live music venues had a tough time with a lot of the venues that existed in the inner city areas closing down. Plus, the gentrification of these areas made it difficult with the amount of money being poured into inner city suburbs, which produced a new set of problems, like noise pollution because the new residents don’t necessarily want loud live music venues on their pub corner. That’s why they're turning into bistros. So there are a variety of reasons.

What do you think the difference is in the live music scene in Melbourne and Sydney? Why is it working in Melbourne?

They’ve just got this tradition of being big supporters of live music and big fans of music. The weather is a big factor in Sydney, people like to go out to parks, to cafes and restaurants in the beautiful summer months. They don’t want to be locked in a hot sweaty venue because it’s usually just too damn hot, with an average band that may or may not be worth paying the cover charge. Whereas, in Melbourne they tend to stay indoors more, they entertain inside and the pubs, clubs and bars have catered for the cold with open fireplaces or ventilation during the summer months. I don’t know, it seems to work a lot better there. I just think it's because Melbourne is a far bigger supporter of live music than Sydney. It has retained that excitement for live music.

Korn

With lesser venues to play and long distances to travel interstate, how does it effect the music industry in Sydney?

Hugely. With places like the Playroom closing it's one less place they can play between Byron Bay and Brisbane and it’s a pretty hefty drive between destinations if you don’t have a gig to stop and play at.

In the States (US) there are places to play everywhere, within an hour there’s another venue, sadly we don’t have that here. Bands go on the road there and have plenty of places to play and build up a fan base. That’s why bands like Korn have made it so big, earning millions now but for the first couple of years they went on the road and played everywhere. They survived and had enough money to keep on going, but in Australia we have huge distances between towns and not enough venues to play in between, which makes it difficult for bands to build a fan base and profile.

So how does it affect music culture?

Well, bands just don’t have that live experience, they’re not able to get out there and practice what they do best. They can practice in a rehearsal room all they like, but a band really learns its craft when it hits the stage, because then they work out what material in their set works, and what doesn’t. If they get nervous on stage they learn to combat that, and learn to put on a live performance, so a lot of bands are suffering because they don’t have that outlet and live experience.

And there is no live outlet on TV other than Recovery and Alchemy.

There’s Ground Zero. Rage is good coz they air independent music that otherwise wouldn’t get seen or heard. Recovery is going to be reshaping itself into a couple of live music programs on Thursday and Friday nights, taking the live music component of the Saturday program and putting it into a separate program. So there’s that, but that’s not good enough. Bands need to get a lot of live music experience before they get on TV otherwise it could really do them damage. Sadly, at the moment there just aren’t enough live venues in Sydney to cater to all the bands wanting a gig.

Does word of mouth still work?

Yeah, word of mouth is a good one, it’s the reason Frenzal Rhomb built a fan base. They did a lot of touring and they did all age gigs, so there were a lot of under 18’s who spread the word. They’ve done very well touring the live music circuit.

The problem is expectation. A lot of bands these days will start off with about 6 rehearsals, they’ll then decide to record one of their songs, they’ll press it up put it on a CD then send it to us and get very indignant when we don’t play their song. Well its like, they’ve probably only done about 3 gigs in their lives, they’ve recorded once, you know that’s not how it should be. I mean, bands should have the opportunity to play in public a lot more than they do. I mean, bands starting out now, it’s really hard to get your first break, to get your first gig. It's basically through networking and friends that they get a support spot and if they do a good gig they’ll be invited back and with a bit of luck build a fan base.

What about Silverchair? They seemed to just appear out of nowhere. The headmaster lent them an amp; they did a demo and sent it onto Nomad. The rest is history. Bands probably think that will happen to them and who can blame them?

Silverchair were a good band. It was an opportunity that presented itself and they went with it. It’s rare. It doesn’t happen very often and certainly not now, but it can and does happen on occasion, but I think it has given bands the false impression that they will be discovered and supported after a short period of time. I mean, Silverchair were under age and their parents escorted them to their gigs, so they cut their teeth on the live music scene in Newcastle. It didn’t happen overnight as its been reported and romanticised, but when it did, it happened quickly for them.

Should the Government get involved in supporting live music?

Government invention is not necessarily the best way of fostering a really active music scene, it can help and it can have advantages along the way, but I don’t think you can throw money at it and make it work. I mean, music just needs an outlet and it will survive if there’s a stage for expression for young people, it will happen. If putting government bucks into all these programs worked they would have been doing it along time ago. It always goes to bands that are pretty average or conservative anyway. It doesn’t tend to support the really exciting young fresh innovative bands out there banging away in their garages. It tends to promote the bands that are safe and derivative, that are perceived as having some sort of commercial viability. I mean, the government isn’t the best to judge that. It’s a creative process not an intellectual one. 

I’m talking injecting funds into it, not controlling the live music scene.

If they inject money into it, they will control it. The thing is, if these bands were able to play live, then they would be able to draw a crowd, the record industries would then get excited because the band is pulling this amount of people, they’d sign them up with a record deal then we’d give them radio airplay. It’s as simple as that. That’s the process but it can’t work if there are no venues to play in. That process has been amputated at the moment.  

The Lansdowne is a case in point. They were pulling such huge crowds they were spilling over onto the street, which caused a whole set of problems given that it is on the corner of a very busy intersection.

I don’t know the full details about that, but I guess it has more to do with the new owners wanting to turn it into a different type of venue. And drunks getting run over by oncoming traffic could spell disaster for the venue, as they're liable and responsible for punters safety, so I guess it has more to do with that.

Do you think the Rave scene has a lot to do with the problem of live music?

The club scene has been strong for about 10 years, they can exist side by side that’s been proven in Melbourne, it works there. 

In London the dance scene is huge yet we can’t seem to get it together here in Sydney?

Going out clubbing and socializing with friends maybe more attractive than going to a grotty pub watching a band blare out excruciatingly loud so they can’t hear each other, let alone talk at those volumes, they can’t go anywhere to talk or just hang out other than outside. That’s probably why they were spilling out of the Lansdowne so they could talk to each other. Going to a gig is not just about music its also about socialising and meeting up with mates. I mean, a lot of live music venues in Sydney are stupid, coz they put on bands so late at night that a lot of kids don’t want to hang around until midnight to see their favourite band. They want to party and by the time they get to the gig, they're drunk or drugged and don't listen anyway. Its ridiculous.

In London, they’ve realised this to a certain degree so put on bands a lot earlier in the night, and by 11pm punters go onto nightclubs to kick on with friends and dance. They do both. They coexist and it works and it can work here.

Sandringham Hotel - Newtown

So it’s a lack of initiative and promotion of venues?

That’s where venues have to get smarter in terms of what sort of entertainment they provide. Making sure they’ve got 3 really good bands on the bill instead of 1 good band and 2 dodgy bands. Not charging $25 bucks a head to get in and making sure the drinks are cheap.

And not charging for water? I got charged a $1 for a glass of tap water the other night. Outrageous!

Ridiculous. They used to have water jugs on the bar topped up all night. There are a lot of factors, which work against live music scene. If they make it user friendly, then we’ve got hope. Punters aren't the enemy but the possible saviours of the live music scene. Embrace them, don't alienate them.

How does it effect you personally and professionally?

It means less opportunities to go out and catch these bands play live. If there’s good live music to be seen, then I’m there. I saw Tim Rogers (You Am I) on the weekend at Newtown RSL supported by a young Sydney band called Penny Dreadful and it kicked. It was great.

The trend seems to be putting these bands back into the RSL clubs which have large stages with plenty of space, cheap food and beer. RSL clubs were struggling with low turnover, but now if they capture the youth market and promote the venues, well then punters will go back in. So it works for everyone really.

So you think it’s just a phase?

Yes I do. Eventually it will pass. It’s just a shame that there's not the space for bands to get a gig. It's so bad in Sydney at the moment, its really, really tough to get a gig. It’ll break out again. It will have to. It’s like saying that kids will hang up their guitars and put away their synthesisers or their drum kits and sit in silence. They aren't going to put their instruments away and never play again. In the face of adversity great music is made - that’s what will happen. The kids will get so frustrated that there will be some sort of explosion and in a couple of years time it might come from Sydney because of the fact that there are so few places to play.

It’s just a phase. It’s a phase we went through in the late 80’s with the fire regulations when the pub and club scene was huge. The live music scene will kick back and the prominence of poker machines in pubs will become less and less coz people are going to get tired of them. I just don’t think there is going to be a high demand for them in about 5 years – we’ll see what happens – I could be wrong. There’s just a glut of poker machines at the moment. I mean they are low maintenance, they don’t provide any agro, they don’t have to provide a doorman for the venue, so they are simple and easy but aren’t going to be the high revenue earner for the venues because people are gonna get bored with poker machines because its not entertainment or entertaining. And if people get addicted, they’ll be too broke to play and that creates a whole set of different problems. It might make money initially, but it wont last for long. People will yearn for that live music experience again.

The Metro

INTERVIEW WITH JOHN TINGWELL

Editor of The Drum Media.

Why do you think Melbourne is doing better in terms of live music than Sydney? Is it the weather? Is it cultural or is it cyclical?

I think the Arts in general do better in Melbourne than Sydney. It’s not just the weather coz it’s friggin cold in Melbourne, but they are geared up for it and they just do it better than us. It’s also the great indoors, where we in Sydney generally enjoy the great outdoors with great beaches, and people like to go out to dinner and parks etc.

And its cyclical I reckon. It’s different now as there are so many more choices with technology at home. If you’ve just spent a couple of grand on a new computer system or games system, then you’ve obviously got less dollars to spent on going out. You’re going to watch your dollars and stay at home.

I’ll probably be crucified for saying this and this could be cyclical as well, but I don’t think there are that many great bands to see in Sydney at the moment, not good enough to drag people out of the house and into the venues. I mean, when You Am I first played they were packing out venues, breaking house records over at the Hopetoun and the Annandale, selling beer left, right and centre but there are very few You Am I’s at the moment.

The Fitzroy Hotel

Is that the result of nowhere to play except in the garage?

Until recently there were places to play, like at the Sando and the Annandale when they were still happening, but I just don’t think people are into the small event any more with an unknown band on stage with 3 people in the audience and probably family members at that. It seems to be about spectacle at the moment. The big event. The hype thing. You can’t blame the venue owners, they can't put on spectacles, but it's important to get the right support acts. 

It's thanks to the likes of huge bands like U2 bringing their juggernaut to town with huge screens etc, it becomes a spectacle and that’s what the punters want, but the little bands can’t be expected to compete with the likes of U2 or Madonna. So it’s a quandary really. And these big name bands are finding it more and more difficult as well. In some respects they are forced to make their shows bigger and bigger to please and impress the punters. It’s all about spectacle, which means mega bucks, and only bands like U2 can afford to do huge shows with fireworks and belly dancers and massive TV screens etc.

So it’s back to Shock Rock? Where does that leave the little garage band?

Screwed!!! (Laughing) No, the punters don’t expect that sort of spectacle from the little Indy band, but they do expect good music and that’s a big part of the problem right now – not enough good music out there. To generalise and say that the live scene is suffering at the moment is to dismiss the punk and hardcore scene, which is still happening and as a result you get venues like the Iron Duke that are still having great weekends, that scene is thriving at the moment.

Mark went to extraordinary levels to get that happening like hiring a bus to get people to and from the venue etc….

Mark is passionate about live music – it took a lot of hard work. So it depends on the music. There is a lull in the music industry at the moment, but if we’re talking live music venues, then The Metro is one of the best live music venues in the world, although I haven’t been to Kurdistan lately. For my money The Metro is a perfect venue in every respect and they're doing well.

Do you think music is evolving?

It’s evolving. It will always evolve. Rock and roll has evolved to the point where you really have to try hard to provide something new, as a result I think people have become disenchanted and disinterested far quicker than they do in dance music. Every week there’s a new style of dance music and of course they’re going to go into a club to have a bit of a dance, a bit of a knees up.

Do you think the dance scene is still underground here in Sydney compared to Melbourne?

It is changing here especially radio wise. Dance music is always evolving, but I think there is more of a cross over thanks to bands like The Prodigy and The Chemical Brothers presenting it in a live situation. So the kids who are interested in punk and hardcore are now also interested in dance music, so dance music has the best of both worlds they’ve got an expanding audience whereas rock'n'roll is attracting smaller audiences. And they are merging genres, hardcore, thrash, grunge, punk & doff faster than we can even digest it. It's an amazing scene. 

Do you go out to see bands?

Not as much as I use to. I use to go out nearly every night of the week especially when I was a reviewer to check bands out and I was constantly excited by it all, but that was in the days when You Am I and Powerfinger and all these band were playing regularly. They have gone up a level and no longer play in small pubs, but now pack out stadiums and there doesn’t seem to be anyone replacing them. That’s not to say there never will, there’s probably a You Am I rehearsing in a garage right now. If more bands put on a good show, then they might get the audience attention.

The Basement

How much competition is the Internet giving the Art industries?

It’s also evolving. Music venues and companies are competing with the Internet now and gamers, so competition is fierce, so they have to do something different. As the Internet evolves, so will music and how its marketed and promoted. It’s evolving daily. It's interesting times in regards to the entertainment industries in all areas TV, film, theatre, music - it’s all evolving and it’s largely because of the Internet. So it is going to be interesting to see where it goes. Every week I get a pile of games arriving on my desk, so gaming is huge industry. (He points to a tower of games he has to review).

If people are upset about the live scene dwindling then they should get out there and go and see live bands. It’s that simple. The only reason its dwindling is because people aren’t going to see live bands, so venues, the proprietors are not making any money so they are replacing bands with whatever works to bring in revenue. What choice do they have? You can’t blame them of they put in a few poker machines. If I had a business and there was a way of making money, I’d choose the making money venture even if its the dreaded poker machine. So be it. Do whatever it takes to survive otherwise go under completely. Blame the punters and blame the bands, if they want venues to stay open then go to a gig, buy a few beers and bring your mates.

So it’s a transitional phase, as in Video Killed the Radio Star?

Exactly. Information technology is changing everything. Once upon a time live music was the only form of entertainment other than sport. Back then they thought video would be the death of live music but it wasn’t. In fact, it enhanced live music. I’d watch MTV or Rage and based on the film clip I'd go and see the band or buy the record. They thought CD’s would kill the industry and people protested about giving up their record players and having to buy these new fangled CD players, now you’ve got them in cars. So it evolves, but I also think it’s cyclical. Nirvana is a case in point. They exploded onto the scene, literally, after a long lull in the music scene and Grunge took off and started a new movement in music. So it’s probably waiting to happen again any time soon. Rock'n'Roll wont die out - its just evolving into another form of entertainment along side everything else. Stay tuned I suppose.

The Annandale Hotel

INTERVIEW WITH MILLI MILGATE

Booker for the Hopetoun and Annandale Hotel

Why do you think the Annandale is stopping live music when it is an institution for live music?

The previous owner Peter Morris owned The Annandale for a good deal of time and it was still going, live music was always the focus, he then invested in The Globe in Newtown and he went into a partnership with Tim MacLean, Tim Freedman and Matthew Elliot.

I guess its like weighing apples with apples, the potential with running a live music venues vs. poker machines. It’s not like the Annandale was doing any worse, or not making money, but I think it was perceived as another potential for making money from poker machine income. The Annandale has always had poker machines and the new owner will not be getting anymore, he’s got the maximum at the moment, which I think is about 15. However, he is introducing a bistro, like everyone else, which will operate in conjunction with the games area and beer garden, however the band area will become a restaurant.

Like Sydney needs another Bistro?

I guess that's what he envisaged in a pub, he’s not familiar with the music industry and it's what he wants to do – turn it into an up market restaurant and gaming pub. It could be multifaceted and encompass everything, bands, bistro and gaming, but I guess it's a different the clientele he is trying to attract and maybe the bands would disrupt his vision depending on the band and what type of crowds they attract.

How was the last gig with You Am I at the Annandale?

For me it was mixed emotions. I don’t think there was any balance at all. I was either really, really happy and quite excited with You Am I are playing the last gig and that was all really good. And I was really nervous about how the venue was going to end up at the end of the night.

Why? Did you think it was going to be trashed?

Yes. I heard the story of the Hopetoun when they did the last gigs and I thought the same thing was going to happen to the Annandale. I had no balance it was a mixture of feeling really angry and upset that it was closing. No balance, but it was an amazing atmosphere the week following the closure. Like it should be every week, but I suppose it's all changing.

I heard the punters were queuing down Nelson st?

Yes, the first punters were there at amount 5am. It queued around the corner, with way too many punters to fit in. It was fantastic.

What’s happening with The Globe?

They're still having a problem with noise complaints. They were advised a certain way to setup the venue, which they implemented the changes and then there was one leakage of sound and from one complaint, from a resident next door, and it only takes one person to shut down a venue. They are working to rectify the issue, so that’s the current situation.

The same thing happened to The Lyric in Darlinghurst. One resident complained and they had to shut it down, even after they spent a fortune soundproofing.  

I think there is one person living next door to every live music venue in Sydney and if they checked the land titles they would probably be from the same family (laughing). It just seems crazy. I mean, what the city offers is this great lifestyle, where you go out, where people do things. It's a cultural and artistic way of life, like in any big city and people are moving into the city to be apart of that yet want suburbia and its just not gonna happen. If you move next door to a live music venue then you have to expect the sounds of live music. Logical.

It is crazy. If you move to the city then you have to expect noise. So how do you think it’s effecting the industry?

I’ll start with the positives, because there are so many negatives. I think people are becoming aware of the problem, particularly within the mainstream media as well as street press. It's really highlighted in Sydney that something is going on here, so I think that has been good to bring it to the forefront. It’s going to make bands become a lot more thoughtful of where they play and how often they play. I think one of the problems is you’ve got no equal distribution of how the bands are levelled. You’ve got a whole heap of bands starting out and all they want to do is get out there and do gigs, so they’ll try every venue. They ring me up and say “I’ve got a gig at The Bat & Ball, The Excelsior, and the Three Weeds and I want a gig at the Hopetoun” - and the first thing I think of is ‘how are they going to fill every venue? if they’re doing a five-mile radius? These bands end up playing to ten people and probably the same ten people and they don’t feel good about it. The venue doesn’t feel good because it’s not bringing in any money. So nobody wins. So I think in that regard, bands have to be mindful of how often they play and where. Space it out so the punters want to see them play.  

The closure of important venues makes Sydney an even smaller fishbowl.

Exactly. Too much exposure can be a killer for a band. Punters get lazy and think, 'oh I saw them last week' and if they didn’t knock them over the first time, they won’t be bothered to see them again in a hurry. Maybe the lack of venues is going to make bands stop and think that they can’t play Sydney every week. So you’ve got a lot of bands that are out there tyring to get shows, but not really making any inroads and then you’ve got a gap between medium size bands who can fill the Annandale and the Metro. What you don’t get are the bands we had in the last weeks of the Annandale like Regurgitator, Underground Lovers, Even, Rat Cat, Front End Loaders,  etc, they are all big bands, they are gonna sell out the Annandale every time but they are being pushed up to a Metro size room, but then not always filling it. I think people should concentrate selling out Annandale size room’s and turning people away, than half filling the Metro.

That works on a psychological level for both punters and bands.

Yes. How good does the band feel when they know it’s sold out and had to turn people away? And the punters are then determined to see them next time around and the venues are happy coz they sell beer and actually make a profit. That creates a vibe. And if the bands, venues and promoters are smart they can capitalise on that hype and vibe.

The Macquarie Hotel

Do you think bands need to employ different tactics like Spectacle?

Yes. Every show a band does should be an event and they should really think about who their support acts are going to be and how they can enhance the gig. I don’t expect them to get into costume or anything, but I do expect to be entertained when I go to a gig and so do the punters. 

But then there is danger of being blown off stage, like when Alice In Chains blew everyone away at the Clash of the Titans gig. It was almost like the end of thrash metal as we new it and in came Grunge.

Yeah and I bet those guys regret having them on the bill, but it goes to show no one knows what's going to work or what isn’t. But then again that is exactly what creates a buzz and a vibe.

Alice In Chains were considered soft rock at the time so I presume they weren’t perceived as a threat.

But the punters were ready for them and they took off.  If you’re a young Sydney band and you're just starting out, then tell everyone you know that this is your one and only show and get a lot of people to the gig. Don’t try to do 3 or 4 and split it over different pubs and most importantly - get the right support acts. All bands chip in for a 1/4 page ad and if you develop a fan base then do a pole poster run and plaster your band name all over town. At the moment the sound guys are the only ones that make money coz they wont work for free and every band needs a mixer.

Maybe that’s a new career move – do a sound engineers course?

Oh yeah, you gotta diversify.  

Hopetoun and Lansdowne Hotel